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roblock
02-23-2011, 10:52 PM
Still checking things over between storms and work...

The rattle that I initially thought to be a u-joint seems to be coming from the pump. That is what it sounds like. The u-joint appears fine visually. Looks nice and clean. But that may still turn out to be the problem.

The pump was completely out of grease. So I am concerned that I may have to get into the pump. Is it possible for the rattle to come from the pump even though the front seal is not leaking and the grease has been refilled at the nozzle?

What kind of costs are involved in a rebuild or replacement. The info at Pantherjets is very limited. But I have ordered a manual and bushing kits etc..

Also, the former owner idled it dry many times, and I did hear some guys on another forum saying you can do that with a Panther. Please tell me that's true

78_Tahiti
02-24-2011, 06:03 PM
unbolt the rear housing (4 bolts and 1 in steering shaft and 1 in arm for reverse bucket) check the large nut that holds the impeller on the shaft. You can grab the impeller and rock it back and forth to see if the shaft moves as you turn it by hand. You can also have a look at the DU Bushing in the tail, see if it is excessively worn. Tom at JetBoat performance stocks parts for Panthers as well as Panther!

jetboatperformance
02-24-2011, 10:11 PM
Still checking things over between storms and work...

The rattle that I initially thought to be a u-joint seems to be coming from the pump. That is what it sounds like. The u-joint appears fine visually. Looks nice and clean. But that may still turn out to be the problem.
Jet Drives , when run out of the water (or sometimes@idle) will set up what we call "Machine noise" which is a product of a heavy impeller (stainless in Panther) and some wear or loosness in the fit between the jet drive shaft and mating driveline splines , this noise will typically disapate with a load on the impeller (slight acceleration) if not it could be developing Jet front bearing issues
The pump was completely out of grease. So I am concerned that I may have to get into the pump. Is it possible for the rattle to come from the pump even though the front seal is not leaking and the grease has been refilled at the nozzle?
This is definatley not good , the Panthers dont take grease but rather the front dual Timken bearings run in about 3 ounces of 90 wt gear oil , if this is gone it suggest seal and likley bearing
issues



Maybe post up more follow up questions , for the folks here or myself I'll be out for a couple days but am taking my Lap Top so I'll be be keeping an eye on this thread as well as others Tom





What kind of costs are involved in a rebuild or replacement. The info at Pantherjets is very limited. But I have ordered a manual and bushing kits etc..

Also, the former owner idled it dry many times, and I did hear some guys on another


None of these jets should be run out of the water if avoidable Rebuilds are simple and parts are readily available and we do stock most anything you might need ....

roblock
02-24-2011, 10:43 PM
Thanks guys...

Actually, I found out that Panthers do take grease at the back of the pump inside the nozzle. And they will hold about 25-40 pumps depending on the gun according to Panther Jets. But that is completely dry... I put in 50-60 pumps, so the former owner obviously did not know either.

Even though it was empty. Only God knows how long, it at least came up solid when it was finally full, so the seal is intact.

The 3 0z of 90 wt gear oil is full at the front of the pump, and though it is kinda grey, it appears alright. Needs to be changed, but not low, and not thick, and not white.

78 Tahiti seems to think it may be a loose nut on the impeller I hope that is all... and that the shaft and key are not worn. I will know this Sat when I pull it apart and give the verdict. A friend has offerred to help machine work if the key shaft and impeller are worn badly.

I like the spline slap talk... that's even better!

Thanks for confirming to not run them dry. I heard conflicting answers on that elsewhere...

Any tips on putting water to the pump with a garden hose?

78_Tahiti
02-24-2011, 11:40 PM
well, panthers dont run a wear ring like the mixed flow pumps do (berk, domi, legend) So, as long as there is nothing physicaly wrong with the pump (impeller nut cutting its way into the housing) you can hook a garden hose to the "engine" where the water supply line comes in from the transom. Its never a good idea to run a pump out of the water at high rpm's or for extended periods of time.

roblock
02-25-2011, 11:02 PM
Got some parts today (including DU bushing and seal), so we'll see what's in there tommorrow. The Manual was a big help. Answered several important questions for me. It also indicates that the pump can be run dry as long as the DU bushing is greased. And a friend offerred to help with machining if the key, impeller, and shaft are worn from rattling around. I'll be sure and let you guys know the verdict.

Thanks for all the help!!

roblock
02-26-2011, 05:55 PM
Well... I pulled it apart today and put in a new DU bushing and seal. Everything looked very good in there. Did some very minor filing on the impeller, but the clearances were good.

The nut on the impeller was loose, but not terribly so. The key is still pretty tight. I didn't need a puller to remove the impeller, but it didn't just slide off without some wiggling either.

That is not where the rattle wass coming from. Turns out that it is the U-joint afterall. After tightening the impeller nut, I grabbed the impeller and watched the u-joint assembly as I moved it back and forth. THAT'S where the slop is. I would have caught it before, but I am a crappy mechanic!

So, we'll be pulling the motor in due course, but I wanted it out to clean things up a bit anyway.

78_Tahiti
02-27-2011, 03:34 AM
glad to hear it! As you found out! To me popping the exit housing off, is not very difficult, and guarantees you will find the problem! One of the things I highly recomend on the impeller area. Is go to a Napa Auto Parts or any supplier that you can get "Loctite Stud & Bearing Mount" it is the strongest retaining compound available! Use about 6 drops on the key & shaft before you reinstall the impeller, then about 4 drops on the threads where the nut goes.

jetboatperformance
02-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Re The Drive line , this "grumbling" was what we commonly refer to as "machine noise" common in jet drive and worse in pumps with heavy impellers (Bronze and Stainless) its due to a combined wear in the drive line female splines and pump shaft output splines sometimes replaceing the driveline takes care of most of it , FYI Were extricating a Panther right now at the shop to replace with a Berkeley Hybrid and will have not only the newly rebuilt (by Panther) jet with thier trim for sale but also the dive line Tom

roblock
02-28-2011, 06:48 AM
Re The Drive line , this "grumbling" was what we commonly refer to as "machine noise" common in jet drive and worse in pumps with heavy impellers (Bronze and Stainless) its due to a combined wear in the drive line female splines and pump shaft output splines sometimes replaceing the driveline takes care of most of it , FYI Were extricating a Panther right now at the shop to replace with a Berkeley Hybrid and will have not only the newly rebuilt (by Panther) jet with thier trim for sale but also the dive line Tom


Thanks Tom, I missed that info in your last post. Because of the grease issue, I thought you were confusing a panther with another brand. Makes sense now.

I will check it out. If I do need a shaft, and I go that far with a 32 yr old pump, I might as well change the bearing and two seals as well.

What would the cost be for the shaft, bearing, and two seals?

And what about the driveline assembly?

jetboatperformance
02-28-2011, 09:06 AM
The complete rebuild kit runs a little north of $200 a brand new Panther drive line from me is $189 (used for a Hundy) The rebuild kit also included the mechanical seal which along with the bearings are the most crital part of the build call anytime your redy or we can help Tom

78_Tahiti
02-28-2011, 01:40 PM
Tom@ JetBoat Performance has a lot of experience with these Panther Critters! and Thanks to the energizer kit He & Josh helped design and test. They run accrossed a lot of Panther Parts for those of us still abusing them! Myself Im hoping they run accrossed some used energizer kit parts That and old Poor guy like me can afford! I still enjoy playing with Panthers. But sure am interested in a seat of the pants, difference between the Two! Unless I win the lotto or one falls out of the sky, Im sure I will be playing with my Panthers, getting all they can give! LOL!

roblock
03-02-2011, 06:48 AM
The complete rebuild kit runs a little north of $200 a brand new Panther drive line from me is $189 (used for a Hundy) The rebuild kit also included the mechanical seal which along with the bearings are the most crital part of the build call anytime your redy or we can help Tom


Very good Tom... I checked things over a bit more yesturday, and I do have some spline slop. We'll see what the ujoint looks like when I get it out. Maybe that was the rattle all along.

The stringer repair set me back with the Mrs , so we'll have to wait on that... :redface:

I changed the 90wt oil for the bearings yesturday, and though dark in color, there was no excessive mettallic swirl in the old oil, and no metal flakes. It looked suprisingly good. And it had been run recently too, so its not as though any filings had settled.

Can a guy tighten things up at the spline with Loc-tite for a season?

77GT
03-02-2011, 10:35 AM
Can a guy tighten things up at the spline with Loc-tite for a season?


The splined coupling needs to be free to move axially, otherwise the u-joints will bind.

jetboatperformance
03-02-2011, 12:49 PM
The complete rebuild kit runs a little north of $200 a brand new Panther drive line from me is $189 (used for a Hundy) The rebuild kit also included the mechanical seal which along with the bearings are the most crital part of the build call anytime your redy or we can help Tom


As said above , the splines need to move fore and aft freely , among other problems the drive line can/will "walk" the crank forward and take the thrust out of the Crank/engine (disaster) One way I have been told to leesen the noise is to "dope" female splines with clear silicone sealant and lube the male splines before installation , this is however a temporary fix and will need to be repeated from time to time Tom
Very good Tom... I checked things over a bit more yesturday, and I do have some spline slop. We'll see what the ujoint looks like when I get it out. Maybe that was the rattle all along.

The stringer repair set me back with the Mrs , so we'll have to wait on that... :redface:

I changed the 90wt oil for the bearings yesturday, and though dark in color, there was no excessive mettallic swirl in the old oil, and no metal flakes. It looked suprisingly good. And it had been run recently too, so its not as though any filings had settled.

Can a guy tighten things up at the spline with Loc-tite for a season?

roblock
03-02-2011, 09:38 PM
Makes sense... Thanks guys

roblock
03-06-2011, 08:46 PM
Well, I got the motor out today... and the u-joints need to be replaced. I don't think there was much slop in them, but they are rough. They were greasable, but whoever installed them, put them in backwards, so there was no way to get grease into the zirks. When I replace them, I'll make sure the zirks face the right direction.

Also, we took the time to really check out the slip yoke and shaft. There was some slop, and it seems clear that THAT was where the rattle was coming from.

You nailed it Tom!!!

Its not much play... But just enough to make a knock even by hand. I am going to try and just replace the yoke.

Panther seems to have changed the universals: http://www.pantherjet.com/UNIVERSALS&ADAPTORSSELL.htm

Tom, do you stock the old style yoke? If so, how much? If not, where can I get one?

78_Tahiti
03-07-2011, 08:57 PM
my setup still uses the old "long Yoke" style that Panther used to make. What I did with mine was drillied a small hole up 1.5" a put a zerk in it. this way the splines have a little grease to take up the slack. It seems if the install requires then long yoke (mine does) sometimes you have to go to a 4 point mount system. But for the time being I just give the yoke a little grease & it stays quiet.

roblock
03-08-2011, 11:18 PM
It crossed my mind to do the same thing... thank Steve.

Does it dirty up the area by flinging grease?

78_Tahiti
03-09-2011, 03:26 PM
mine doesn't, I just give it a pump with one of the small pistol grip grease guns before I go out. I'm always cleaning around the engine, etc. anyways after an outing so its not a big deal. Beats the alternative of replacing it. a real fix would be to have a seal on the end of the yoke, like some of the automotive 2 piece driveshafts do. Then it would'nt wear either. But seems like hindsight is always 20/20 when these things are originally engineered.

roblock
05-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Engine install update...

Rattle is gone :rockwoot:

Not totally sure if it was the U-joints (they were bad), or the silicone trick Tom told me about on the yoke... maybe it was both. All I know is that the rattle is gone.

I ordered a rubber ring from Tom that cushions the vibration between the Panther pump and bell housing. About a month ago, I noticed that the old one was so worn, that the bell housing was rubbing on the pump mount metal to metal. That may have played a role too.

Also, because the forward mount holes were worn slightly (mostly the forward hole on the left side) the engine was dislocated slightly. It seems that the engine mounts slightly further back now that it is re-installed, and that may just push the yoke a tad further back onto tighter splines.

Whatever the reason, we gots no rattle no more. :)

We'll see what happens with time.

David
05-08-2011, 06:56 AM
Good news man!!! I had the same problem with my Panther when I first got it with that rubber. Mine was missing completely!!! :4_12_2:

78_Tahiti
05-08-2011, 10:13 AM
David, you get your new DU Bushing yet for the Tail on your Panther?

David
05-08-2011, 10:21 AM
nope... broke... freakin' huge vet bill for dog this week killed me!!! Stupid absess... 10 cent slug woulda fixed him right up but the wife wouldn't let me!!!

78_Tahiti
05-08-2011, 11:10 AM
I know that one to well! 2 years ago, spent my vacation at home nursing our little female silky back to health after her 3 day $1500 stay at the pet hospital!

David
05-08-2011, 11:14 AM
That would have been a 10 cent fix for sure!!! Don't mean to sound cruel but, that ain't happening here!!!

78_Tahiti
05-08-2011, 11:53 AM
Mostly I agree. But this was taken 2 weeks before that event.
http://a3.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/37/f8d8962ecd5d445f9a071d6953aea8f8/l.jpg

Just couldn't doit. She was born on Valentines Day, she had just had her first Birthday!

David
05-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Couldn't help but to grin.... Funny how the threads in here take off in strange directions huh??? LOL
The other one is the Joke Hot Stock Tip is now planning a Utah Jet Boat gathering... LOL

78_Tahiti
05-08-2011, 05:20 PM
Couldn't help but to grin.... Funny how the threads in here take off in strange directions huh??? LOL
The other one is the Joke Hot Stock Tip is now planning a Utah Jet Boat gathering... LOL


Well, its still kind of relative, Maddie loves riding in the boat! And those "NUTTZ" are prolly gonna be buying ammo for their BBQ! LMAO!

76 marlin dolphin
08-19-2013, 12:42 PM
I think I have the same rattle noise. Or I hurt the motor on my last go out . Sounds like its coming from the pump. The sound seems loudest on decell after a light blip of the throttle. Like whaaaa tic tic tic , or just a light rattle at idle. I cant hear it other than during those instances ether because the motor is to loud or it goes away . Makes sense its machine noise because I greased the crap out of the splines and yoke when I put the motor in and no rattle . Now after many go outs it must have all got flung out .

How is the silicone trick holding up?

78_Tahiti
08-27-2013, 05:17 PM
first question, is your engine oil pressure the same. It is quite possible for a U-joint, to rattle at Idle, have you tried giving them a little grease? How does the gear oil in the pump look? any metalic in the sunlight? It is pretty easy to pull the tail housing and have a look at the impeller, only have seen 1 a little loose.

White Lightning
08-28-2013, 10:09 AM
.....Or a cracked flex plate, something to look at. I had a buddy with a Power Joke Diesel that we swore had a rod hammering in it BAD, turned out to be a broken flex plate.
Rob

76 marlin dolphin
08-28-2013, 11:24 AM
first question, is your engine oil pressure the same. It is quite possible for a U-joint, to rattle at Idle, have you tried giving them a little grease? How does the gear oil in the pump look? any metalic in the sunlight? It is pretty easy to pull the tail housing and have a look at the impeller, only have seen 1 a little loose.

The oil pressure was normal for a amc but I changed the oil in the motor when I got home after hearing the noise and the filter . I thought maybe the filter was slightly blocked or the oil was to thin for this engine 10w30 . So I put on a new filter and some 20 w50 Valvoline racing oil and the pressure is way higher than before like 80 psi at 3000 rpm and 40 or 50 at idle and the rattle is still there. The high oil pressure is a little concerning maybe the check valve is stuck or the the 20 w 50 is too thick or its no big deal? I will grease the ujoint, how ofter do you grease them?

This engine jet package does not use a flex plate , it has a heavy auto style flywheel like one for a manual transmission on
a 4x4 jeep . I will look at it closer and see if it is damaged. The only time I have seen a flywheel let go was on a friends
race car at willow and it blew apart at 8000rpm and the bell housing and most of the flywheel was gone . He got lucky
the BMW bell housing was strong and took most of the force and the shrapnel did not penetrate the floor .

White Lightning
08-28-2013, 12:35 PM
The oil pressure was normal for a amc but I changed the oil in the motor when I got home after hearing the noise and the filter . I thought maybe the filter was slightly blocked or the oil was to thin for this engine 10w30 . So I put on a new filter and some 20 w50 Valvoline racing oil and the pressure is way higher than before like 80 psi at 3000 rpm and 40 or 50 at idle and the rattle is still there. The high oil pressure is a little concerning maybe the check valve is stuck or the the 20 w 50 is too thick or its no big deal? I will grease the ujoint, how ofter do you grease them?

This engine jet package does not use a flex plate , it has a heavy auto style flywheel like one for a manual transmission on
a 4x4 jeep . I will look at it closer and see if it is damaged. The only time I have seen a flywheel let go was on a friends
race car at willow and it blew apart at 8000rpm and the bell housing and most of the flywheel was gone . He got lucky
the BMW bell housing was strong and took most of the force and the shrapnel did not penetrate the floor .

That pressure is fine cold, just let the oil come up to temp before jumping on it. High pressure is harder (on the dizzy gear, pump rod and pump gears) to make than high volume.
Rob

roblock
08-28-2013, 11:31 PM
Hey Dolphin... not sure what the culprit is there, but don't panic yet. The only time I hear the rattle is when the boat is out of the water and idling. The silicone trick worked well and has lasted, although I did apply silicone once more when I had the engine out to replace the front pump oil seal last year. It slowly comes back, but not as loud as originally. I also put very few hours on the boat compared to many others.

I also hear a strange noise upon deceleration. But it is not a 'tick'... it is more of a knock or a chugging sound. Hard to describe... I concluded it has something to do with water moving through the pump when engine rpms do not match water speed. That is my guess. I have quit worrying about it as everything seems normal and nothing has imploded. The first time I noticed it was when I blew a fuse at full throttle ( wire terminal broke under dash and shorted against back of guage). I didn't know what happened but when I heard the noise I have described I didn't know what to make of it. And it was louder because the engine was now off.

If that is it, you could try turning off the ignition at speed. By now you should know if your boat pulls a bit to one side or the other on deceleration, so be prepared for that if it does. Mine pulls slightly to the left, but with the rudders I bought from Panther, I can compensate easily. If that is all it is I would not worry at all. It will make that sound until you come off the plane.

As for oil pressure, I run 10/30w and get 80PSI cold at full throttle, 40PSI at idle, and 50-60PSI hot full throttle and 20-30 at idle. I would swear it was higher on average last year when I was running Castrol. This year I am running Mobil full synthetic. Not sure it it makes any difference. I may just be paying more attention this year. Did my share of research and my numbers are very normal for an AMC. I am very pleased since the heads have never been off this old engine. And that fact helps me resist the temptation to fix what is not broken :biggrin:

roblock
08-28-2013, 11:33 PM
Also, mine has a flex plate, not a flywheel. And that is good... faster revving, less rotating mass.

76 marlin dolphin
08-29-2013, 09:50 PM
I was thinking about running a flex plate but I did not think
It would be strong enough with out a torque converter.

78_Tahiti
08-29-2013, 11:38 PM
My 460 uses only flexplate as well. The SFI Approved Flexplates are a little thicker, thus approved for drag racing.

White Lightning
08-30-2013, 01:09 AM
I was thinking about running a flex plate but I did not think
It would be strong enough with out a torque converter.

Dolphin, in a jet application the area outside or the crank flange doesn't do anything except connect to the starter. The universal joints (cardan joint) on the jet drive shaft connects directly to the crank flange with the flex plate sandwiched in between. A stock flex plate is plenty strong enough to handle the low RPMs that a jet runs in. Throttle response is increased dramatically.
Rob

76 marlin dolphin
08-30-2013, 09:42 AM
Took it out on big bear lake last night and listened closely to the driveline and definitely the driveline .
I wonder if my boat had a flexplate and some one changed it?
throttle response is pretty insane now but getting rid of the flywheel would be cool to lose some more weight.

roblock
08-30-2013, 10:16 AM
A driveline issue should be easy enough to resolve with joints and/or slightly changing the position of the engine on the mounts.

Yeah... I would guessthat it came with a flexplate. I know mine is a stock setup.

BTW (and Attn Steve...) after I posted the info above about oil pressure and such, I read your reply n another thread about the oil you use and the additives. It reminded me that last year I added a can of STP because I read it had the zinc additives. It is VERY heavy stuf. I also used 3 Qs10w30 and 2 Q's 15w30 last year. That would account for the slightly higher oil pressure last year. I had forgotten...

76 marlin dolphin
08-30-2013, 09:30 PM
That's why I use the valvoline racing
Its ash less and high in zinc . I would have
preferrer straight 30 ,but all i could find is 20/ 50.
80 psi hot just seems high .

White Lightning
08-31-2013, 02:04 PM
My engine idles hot right around 76 lbs. I'm using Castroll GTX 20-50 Racing oil and a K&N filter.
Rob

roblock
09-03-2013, 10:25 PM
We just spent 5 days camping and the boat ran great. Hit a consistent 57 MPH which is our best at Ruth. Only one other time did the boat run that fast and I attributed it to low altitude at lake Mendocino. Not sure why it was running so good other than making sure the fuel filter was clean every day. We are getting a lot of varnish sand out of the tank this season. Nothing else was different since the last trip. Also could be better fuel I suppose. I am happy about it, but would like to know WHY it is running faster so I can repeat it.

Anyway... as for oil pressure on the AMC, I dumped in a bottle of STP on Sunday and sure enough, my oil pressure was back to where it was last year. Although I have not had any issues with 10w/30, I think I will run a thicker oil next season just since so many of you seem to do so.